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$2/$5: How Do We Size 4-Bet Here?

JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
edited February 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$1600 eff. BB is a young grinder aggro 3-bettor, 3-betting me a ton and he's directly on my left. He 3-bet my button open with T8s out of SB 5 mins ago.

2 fish limp, I make it $30 in SB with ATo, BB makes it $90.

If I want to 4-bet what's the best size?

Comments

  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I like around 300 being OOP and 300BB deep.

    Generally at 100BB my go to is 2.2x IP and 2.8x OOP. Being so deep i likely slightly more than 3x.

    However, i probably wouldn't 4 bet this hand this deep. I think you have enough Axs and low SC to use that you don't have to use a hand with such bad playability. I think we can call tho.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    Change seats/tables is a better idea IMO
  • chizler62chizler62 Posts: 71Subscriber
    Depends on what you think our equity is? If we're 36% against his range, with these stacks we'd need to pick a 4 bet sizing that would literally make him fold 80% of the time to be long-term profitable. (And thats just plus $20)
    Thats factoring in full stacks of course.

    51% equity? And at a fold rate of 50% overtime we're +$100.

    The smaller the stacks the more profitable it becomes. Same situation with 36% equity and now only $500? We'd only need him to fold 50% of the time to show a profit.




  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    The more i think about it this spot is quite close, what did you end up doing?
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,060Subscriber
    If someone is 3betting me a lot, then I'm usually going to either a) seat/table change, or b) tighten up my opening range. With a villain like you describe I may not open ATo from the SB, even if normally a nice spot.

    If I do open this, then I do like 4! here. Since he's raising light, I don't think it needs to be too large, as it is not a disaster if he calls. I'm probably going to tank for slightly longer than normal, then raise to $265ish.
  • I agree with with DP, my opening range tightens up when OOP to villain and I am looking for the first seat change.

    Poker is about profits, don't let egos get in the way.

    I also think ATo is a bad 4bet hand here - it's good because the combos of AK/AQ/AA it removes, but bad because you're deep and can get flatted a lot here. Which is just going to lead to a gross bvb bloated pot war.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
    Even a bad LAG on your left can play accidentally balanced. If you don't have reads on him I believe it is marginal +EV on for you to play him OOP. But a bad LAG on your left steals profit on your right which is where most of your money comes from. So I prefer no aggressive on my left that bloat pots.
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    Call and play poker imo.

    If he is out of line with his 3 bets, I don't see why ATo is a bad hand.
  • pocket11spocket11s Posts: 144Subscriber
    The main question is, if you know he's 3betting you wide, why are you raising ATo in SB especially when he's got position on you 300bb deep? You're creating unnecessarily tough situations for yourself by doing this imo.
  • JustfourfunJustfourfun Posts: 202Subscriber
    I have noticed a recent increase in lite 3 betting by the best players at the table. I see winning pros 3 bet 4 consecutive hands and not once face a 4 bet. In these hands the V 3 bettor takes control and is challenging to range. Oftentimes the V 3 bettor is one of the best players at the table. So what to do... the answer: make solid decisions one at a time. I agree with iamallin: why 4 bet here? If V is 3 betting light isn't the best decision to call here and see a flop and play a tough hand. I don't agree with Pocket - your $30 raise is a solid decision and the right decision. Calling Vs 3 bet is also solid given Vs wide 3 bet range. The decision preflop to bet another $60 to potentially win $190 when you are likely ahead is a solid decision with upside that will outweigh the negative of playing a bloated pot oop against a solid player with a wide range. The problem with a 4 bet to $265 is that you will likely only get called by a better hand. V's success with this strategy of lite 3betting seems to be that a modest 50 percent of pot flop c-bet of $95 has a far greater chance of success than a typical 50 percent of pot flop c bet. Additionally, players will attribute too great of a bluffing tendency to Vs flop, turn and river bets.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    I like around 300 being OOP and 300BB deep.

    Generally at 100BB my go to is 2.2x IP and 2.8x OOP. Being so deep i likely slightly more than 3x.

    However, i probably wouldn't 4 bet this hand this deep. I think you have enough Axs and low SC to use that you don't have to use a hand with such bad playability. I think we can call tho.

    I don't intend to play.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    edited February 2017
    I 4b to $300. He 5bs $600. I fold, he shows a 4.
  • iamalliniamallin Posts: 1,173Subscriber, Professional
    This may sound result oriented..but I predicted this would happen. This player sounds like a dick waiver..if you are a girl, he is going to wave his wand even more. I just don't see much profit in these preflop pissing contests with aggro maniacs unless you are prepared to go the distance. My approach to this spot is call with good hands and call down postflop or check raise them on the flop or turn with some equity and stack off.

    Great example is hand between ivey vs merier on hsp ..Ivery just called mrrcieer squeeze with 99 and stacked off postflop in a low board.

    Same with durr vs dario miniseries. .durr called dario's 3 bet oop and flopped top pair and stacked off.

  • RichiebklynRichiebklyn Posts: 38Subscriber
    do they still call that a maniac, or is that now standard....
    Thanked by 1Joanna
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,244Member
    Joanna wrote: »
    I 4b to $300. He 5bs $600. I fold, he shows a 4.

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