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$2/$5: Should We C-Bet This Flop and Why?

JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
edited February 2017 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$1000 eff. MP1 opens $25, I 3b SB with A J to $100, MP1 calls.

Flop: Q T T :s: Pot $207

Comments

  • I personally don't 3bet AJ suited from SB against MP raise - depending villain tendencies etc. It often feels like it is a bluff raise as not much of their calling range you're getting value from. Also bloating a pot OOP where it's going to be hard to play well post flop IMO.

    Do you have a cbet standard in 3bet pots OOP with made hands? In these scenarios I often Cbet 70ish with made hands and bluffs.

    You have to put villain on a range - how have they been playing previously? Have they called many 3bets, what have been showing down with, what's your table image like.

    A lot of people will have two cards T+, pocket pairs here - both call a flop cbet. I'm only cbetting this board if my image is winning, I know villain can lay down top pairs. Plan would be to bet flop and barrel any diamond/9 turn.

    As played and vs unknown I don't cbet here - deep enough for them to float random hands, pairs and flat with monsters so navigating future streets will be awkward/guesswork.
  • aaronaaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    edited February 2017
    Without framing any game dynamics/reads nobody can give you a meaningful response here. What's your image? Who's the villian? Why did u 3b pre? Is he sticky? Does he float? What does he do with pairs here? Will he fold to barrels? Is he elastic/inelastic to sizing? Is he a fish? Is he a pro? can he hand read? How does he perceive you? Do you 3b light a lot?

    --too many variables that you haven't defined. I think by throwing these variables in your description you'll find you can answer this question yourself
  • chizler62chizler62 Posts: 71Subscriber
    I I'm only cbetting this board if my image is winning
    100%
    I believe 9our own image must be a significant factor or component in our cbet matrix.
    If a villain sees me 3 bet AT out of SB and a hour later I'm faced with this situation, I'm likely not cbetting. But, if our 3 bets are few and the ones that made it to showdown have been AA or KK then I'm more likely to cbet.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Can't we fold out a lot of PPs on the flop? Don't we have enough equity vs his 3b call range? Seemed like a pretty standard cbet to me.
  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I would not 3 bet this because in a live setting we usually have to fold to a 4 bet, which is not what we want to be doing with a hand this strong. However, if you have a read that someone doesn't 4 bet enough, which is true of almost every live player, or that they just play bad vs 3 bets in general i don't mind it.

    I'm fine 3 betting AJo because i don't mind folding that to a 4 bet nearly as much.

  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I actually think c betting this flop or not is quite complex and depends a lot on what your exact 3 bet range is and what we think V's call range to be. I think this is quite hard to answer in a vacuum.

    If I was to bet this flop, which i might not bet with anything, it would probably be with a small sizing and i think this is an ok hand to bet like that.

    I also think check call is fine depending on bet size.

    Maybe exploitively we just get enough 22-88 to fold by betting but it's hard to know. One problem with this is that V might not fold those to a small size, and we could bet a big size but there is a chance he would figure out that we probably don't want to value bet really any hands for a large size here.
    Thanked by 1iamallin
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
    If your opponent is unknown I'd rather polarize my 3b to make the hand easy to play or just call with such a good hand with deep stacks. This flop is hard to play because of your preflop 3b.

    If his calling range is this
    QQ-77,AKo-AQo,KQo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs

    About 1/2 his hands hit this flop.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    If your opponent is unknown I'd rather polarize my 3b to make the hand easy to play or just call with such a good hand with deep stacks. This flop is hard to play because of your preflop 3b.

    If his calling range is this
    QQ-77,AKo-AQo,KQo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs

    About 1/2 his hands hit this flop.

    Then 1/2 pot cbet prints money.

  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Joanna wrote: »
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    If your opponent is unknown I'd rather polarize my 3b to make the hand easy to play or just call with such a good hand with deep stacks. This flop is hard to play because of your preflop 3b.

    If his calling range is this
    QQ-77,AKo-AQo,KQo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs

    About 1/2 his hands hit this flop.

    Then 1/2 pot cbet prints money.

    How does it print? You are not taking into account the EV of checking.
    Thanked by 1iamallin
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Joanna wrote: »
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    If your opponent is unknown I'd rather polarize my 3b to make the hand easy to play or just call with such a good hand with deep stacks. This flop is hard to play because of your preflop 3b.

    If his calling range is this
    QQ-77,AKo-AQo,KQo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs

    About 1/2 his hands hit this flop.

    Then 1/2 pot cbet prints money.

    How does it print? You are not taking into account the EV of checking.

    1/2 pot cbet needs folds 33% of the time - we'll get them 50% of the time.

  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Well first just because a hand doesn't "Hit" a flop doesn't mean it will fold.

    However lets assume we do get those folds. It doesn't really matter if checking could still be more profitable. Sadly it's much tougher solve for the EV of checking but we can make some guesses.

    The point is it doesn't matter if betting makes a ton of money if checking makes more we should still check.
  • 50% hit, I don't think the other 50% auto fold. A lot will float/call as it is hard for you to have a T there.
  • ohsnapzbrahohsnapzbrah Posts: 632Subscriber
    Our hand plays much better in a smaller pot. Sometimes it's ok to play OOP with a hand as strong as this when we're going to have a clear advantage against their range. I think a hand like A9s or QJs are much better candidates for 3bets because we're clearly going as a bluff.

    If this player were, say, in the CO, then yeah 3bet this for value all day.

    As played, think the flop is a cbet. We have quite a few good turn cards and can fold out hands like 88/99/77 to one barrel and AK/JJ to two barrels. And these are all hands that, in a vacuum, probably aren't 4betting a SB 3bet.

    If we're ever raised, it's a simple fold. We basically are turning our hand into a bluff even though I'm not sure that was our intention preflop.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,581Subscriber
    edited February 2017
    Joanna wrote: »
    Joanna wrote: »
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    If your opponent is unknown I'd rather polarize my 3b to make the hand easy to play or just call with such a good hand with deep stacks. This flop is hard to play because of your preflop 3b.

    If his calling range is this
    QQ-77,AKo-AQo,KQo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs

    About 1/2 his hands hit this flop.

    Then 1/2 pot cbet prints money.

    How does it print? You are not taking into account the EV of checking.

    1/2 pot cbet needs folds 33% of the time - we'll get them 50% of the time.

    Eggzackley. Still tough hand and we don't know his tendencies. Technically betting 40% should be +EV which isn't unreasonable.

    But the problem is how our hand looks to villain.
  • chizler62chizler62 Posts: 71Subscriber


    Then 1/2 pot cbet prints money.

    [/quote]
    If you use up all your ink you can't print.
    Do you factor in what your current image when c betting?
  • TastesLikeBurningTastesLikeBurning Posts: 429Subscriber, Professional
    The question that is more crucial is: why are we 3betting pre?

    I'm not saying 3-betting is wrong here but there's zero information given as to what we're looking to accomplish.
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Well first just because a hand doesn't "Hit" a flop doesn't mean it will fold.

    However lets assume we do get those folds. It doesn't really matter if checking could still be more profitable. Sadly it's much tougher solve for the EV of checking but we can make some guesses.

    The point is it doesn't matter if betting makes a ton of money if checking makes more we should still check.

    I don't think so.

    1. Checking allows V to realize equity.

    2. Checking allows V to bluff us off with a worse hand.

    3. If betting is profitable, checking cannot be more profitable unless we're going for a CR to extract more value.

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