Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

How often do opponents use the CR as a bluff? (Bart Edit) Specifically on the turn?

workinghardworkinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
edited December 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I'm curious how often this move is actually being used these days. Not talking about the river because that's almost nil but flop and turn, how often is it used and when is it used? When it is used, are opponents CRing a large amount? Do they typically follow up on the next street?

In my mind, this move is pretty rare. When I do see it, I feel it's done when opponents pick up a draw or outs and do a weakish CR then give up if they miss. So, ch/call the flop. do a weak CR on the turn. and check river when they miss or lead if they hit. but, I haven't been paying close attention to this so wondering if others have noticed a different trend?
thanks!
«1

Comments

  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,111Administrator, LeadPro
    edited December 2016
    You are asking about the BelugaWhale theorem here, which coincidentally Conlan and I had dinner with Andrew (Baluga) last week in San Jose. http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6605819&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

    In my experience a check raise on the turn is rarely ever a bluff and players at the mid stakes to low levels of live poker have not adjusted to the fact that pulling a delayed semi-bluff on the turn with a front door draw would add max fold equity.

    Even though I preach that river check raises as bluffs are almost non existent occasionally you will see opponents jumping on what they see as thin value bets on 5th street to put their opponents to the test.

    This, however, doesn't happen on 4th street. What has been consistent over the last 10 yrs that I have been playing pro is the fact that opponents almost never check raise the turn as a semi-bluff when they have not improved their equity in the quality of their draw even when the situation might warrant it.

    For example a player with either K Q or A 6 calls a preflop raiser from in or out of position. The flop comes T 6 :s: 3 and the player with a draw calls a bet. The turn comes the 7 . The preflop raiser bets again. It is so rare now for you ever to see the drawing player raise the turn to represent 89 or 45. In fact, in real time, I would most likely range the player with a huge made hand that was slowplaying the flop, a made hand that the turned filled like 67, 88 or T8, or on the rare case a draw that has now picked up additional equity like J 8

    Also if they are the types of players that have a tendency to play draws aggressively they are starting with aggression on the flop and continuing to barrel off on later streets.

    Bart
    Thanked by 2squishmytomato JKH
  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 352Subscriber, Professional
    @bart do you think most decent regs are aware of this and this is a good line to take for max fold equity, or conversely is raising flop and threatening three streets better? (considering stacks are very deep)
    Thanked by 1JKH
  • marseillemarseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    I'll just add that in typical 100bb capped games, it's also rare because usually it would have to be a shove and usually giving V great odds to call with no fear of river bet. I've done it ( c/r turn bluff)a few times with average stacks as pfr but only after flop gets checked through, giving more headroom for (threat) of river bet. I've only seen it done by a couple of decent lags.
  • marseillemarseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    Who let the dogs out lol?
    Thanked by 2Letmewin1 JKH
  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,111Administrator, LeadPro
    edited December 2016
    @bart do you think most decent regs are aware of this and this is a good line to take for max fold equity, or conversely is raising flop and threatening three streets better? (considering stacks are very deep)

    I think it all depends on the situation. In general the more cards are on the board the more one pair or an overpair lose to so a turn raise definitely can look stronger.

    However I was trying to answer Workinghard's question. It's very rare that I see a typical player (rec or reg for that matter) call the FLOP with a draw to raise the turn, if the turn betting action by the preflop raiser is still strong.

    It can be a bit different if the preflop raiser is kind of "blocking" the turn, in or out of position and the player on the draw recognizes that the preflop raiser can be moved off of his hand.

    Btw I deleted the Trolls post in this thread. I assume we all most likely know who the Troll is and and his type of toxic, arrogant, malicious attitude. 80% of the time he posts flat out bad, inaccurate information which was the case in this thread. He claimed that people will wait until the turn to raise their combo draws which I believe in general is nonsense. Like for example a guy flatting w K J and the board coming out Q 9 2 Preflop raiser bets and player on draw calls. Turn now is 5 :s: preflop raiser bets again and now player on the draw raises...

    Even though this might be a good line for maximum fold equity it is extremely rare. To the point where I can't remember it happening on any poker hands that I have commented on recently. The player will either fast play the FLOP and play that hand aggressively or will play the draw passively and call the FLOP and the blank turn.

    Bart
  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,111Administrator, LeadPro
    edited December 2016
    Btw this is evidence that doing the material and actively interacting with you all helps my game. So I was thinking about this Workinghard thread a lot today.

    A few minutes ago this situation came up. Unknown loose recreational player open limps HJ w $700. I cover and raise to $40 in CO w 3 4 all fold back to him and he calls.

    FLOP: Q J 2

    HJ donks $65, I call.

    TURN: 6

    HJ donks $105 and a stick a big stack of whites ($100s) in the pot. He thinks for 2-3 minutes and finally folds.

    A lot of times I will raise the donk lead right away in the FLOP but do to this discussion and the stack size I thought a better way to play it would be to call FLOP and raise TURN if he led. Obv it worked. If I had raised FLOP and he called it could have been a very easy situation that the stack sizes would be such that he would call off on the turn.

    Thanked by 1TKMoney702
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    I've tried stuff like this rarely just because it doesn't seem to work for the most part, at least in 2/5 which I play. In examples Bart gave first hand AT still calls and second hand AQ still calls. While you should re-evaluate pairs to turn pressue most recs still can't fold TPTK so I've avoided this play and stuck with value betting and value CR when I bink the turn

    I have too many players in my pool that see waking up OTT as a bluff. The turn would need to be a major scare card like an A that brings in a draw so you can rep the A (AK missed flop and called one bet) and or the draw assuming the V has neither. It just doesn't happen enough to get through compared to the times you have a value hand.
  • JamesSuhJamesSuh Posts: 320Subscriber
    I saw it done a few times at the Commerce at 5/5 when I was there over the summer and I would see it in Vegas as well. I would say it's not a typical line I see in Vancouver. Agree CycleV?
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    JamesSuh wrote: »
    I saw it done a few times at the Commerce at 5/5 when I was there over the summer and I would see it in Vegas as well. I would say it's not a typical line I see in Vancouver. Agree CycleV?

    Tthe typical OOP line with a draw (1/3 in Van) is c/c flop, donk turn for less than 1/2 pot. Trying to name their own price to draw (or to combo value/protect made hands worse than TPTK). Most obv diff between 1/3 and Bart's league is the capped nature of our games. Start with a 5 or 6x open, 2-50 callers, and a 60% pot cbet, and we quickly have committment issues (either they're committed or we are).
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,575Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    Live I have never seen a XR bluff on the river and rarely a XR on the turn with a draw. Live

    Online I have induced a XR bluff on the river twice. And once someone XR bluffed me in 13 years. Bluff raises are a little more often but not enough to justify calls. River bluff raise all in for a large amount? Never.
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,244Member
    edited December 2016
    So watching MSG WPT Montreal part 2 FT and just saw a c/r bluff OTT with KJdd on a A42dxd5x but he lost to AK..
    Pretty sure it was an anomaly tho..
  • workinghardworkinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    Live I have never seen a XR bluff on the river and rarely a XR on the turn with a draw. Live

    Online I have induced a XR bluff on the river twice. And once someone XR bluffed me in 13 years. Bluff raises are a little more often but not enough to justify calls. River bluff raise all in for a large amount? Never.

    You might have seen them. They just might not have gone to a showdown if the bluff worked.
  • Bart HansonBart Hanson Posts: 6,111Administrator, LeadPro
    edited December 2016
    Letmewin1 wrote: »
    So watching MSG WPT Montreal part 2 FT and just saw a c/r bluff OTT with KJdd on a A42dxd5x but he lost to AK..
    Pretty sure it was an anomaly tho..

    Well thats a tourney..
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    I tossed out my first c/r river bluff on Friday. Lighting money on fire is fun! Board was J9595. I correctly deduced he didn't have a J or a 9, but putz had the 5. Even he thought it was a crying call. So I guess it would've worked if he had mid PP (which is what I put him on).
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    CycleV wrote: »
    I tossed out my first c/r river bluff on Friday. Lighting money on fire is fun! Board was J9595. I correctly deduced he didn't have a J or a 9, but putz had the 5. Even he thought it was a crying call. So I guess it would've worked if he had mid PP (which is what I put him on).

    That's the catch for me. They basically always have it because recs love to show down and cannot value bet the river without a nutted hand. Once they make that bet it's hard to get them to fold as there hand is usually better than what we are trying to get to fold. The hand we are targeting usually wouldn't have bet the river they would have just checked for showdown.

    I'm talking 2/5 and 1/2. 5/10 there can be other considerations.
  • CycleVCycleV Posts: 1,196Subscriber
    pokertime wrote: »
    That's the catch for me. They basically always have it because recs love to show down and cannot value bet the river without a nutted hand. Once they make that bet it's hard to get them to fold as there hand is usually better than what we are trying to get to fold. The hand we are targeting usually wouldn't have bet the river they would have just checked for showdown.

    I'm talking 2/5 and 1/2. 5/10 there can be other considerations.

    I hear ya man. The fact is, live low-stakes capped poker is boring. I'm one of the loud, social types so I'm always talking and having a good time, but the actual poker part, anything creative is often -EV. I get why some people have earbuds in and listen to podcasts, etc, even if I still think they should be taken out back and given the bizness. :wink:
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,575Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    Fuzzypup wrote: »
    Live I have never seen a XR bluff on the river and rarely a XR on the turn with a draw. Live

    Online I have induced a XR bluff on the river twice. And once someone XR bluffed me in 13 years. Bluff raises are a little more often but not enough to justify calls. River bluff raise all in for a large amount? Never.

    You might have seen them. They just might not have gone to a showdown if the bluff worked.

    It is quite possible but the last several years I have been on Bovada. So I have looked up all hands I have folded in either situation. On Bovada you can see the opponent's hand in 24 hours. We are talking about more than 100,000 hands played. And this is in more recent times where people are more likely to do this. 2008? I highly doubt anyone had the balls to do it.
    I kept a massive database of hands on different types of players. Took a lot of work and it's now entering it's 3rd year of data. Quite interesting results.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    This came up in one of my threads that I posted back in 2015.. For the vast majority of players you just dont see cr on turn as a bluff. So if you see it you should weight villain to value..

    Having said that if you are up against a player who overfolds or a player who can hand read then cr turn could be a great spot to bluff.

    I have done it a few times.. especially given my image.. but only against the right type of opponent.. and better still when the turn card is bigger than any other card on the flop..

    ww
  • marseillemarseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    edited December 2016
    Sorry txt ed not working
  • JamesSuhJamesSuh Posts: 320Subscriber
    Quick hand I can recall from my last Vegas trip as an example of a CR turn bluff that was done by my opponent. I was playing 5/10 at the Bellagio.

    Folds to me on the button, I open to 30 with A8o. BB defends. Flop comes KK3r. Check check, turn 8 puts a backdoor diamond draw out. Check, I bet 40 he makes it 140, I call River jack, check check he shows J7dd. I saw this kind of line taken many times, especially in Vegas as I think against a thinking player it will maximize fold equity.
Sign In or Register to comment.