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3bet pot vs good pro

squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 352Subscriber, Professional
edited December 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5 game, back home for squishgiving. 1500 effective.

V is a good pro who normally plays 5/10. Can v bet razor thin and run big bluffs as well. I have been card dead and have a super tight image.

V opens in MP to 20. Whale on tilt calls in HJ. I look down at A 5 on the button and decide to three bet to 85. (good pro in bb who's capable of squeezing, and I think I can oftentimes get V to fold and Whale to continue).

V and Whale both call.

A84r. Checks thru.

6 turn, completing rainbow. V leads 130. Whale folds. I call.

3 river. V bets 225.

Call or fold?
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Comments

  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    Fold. He's not bluffing or vbetting weaker.
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,244Member
    Probably calling, he might think he can push you off 10's-KK once you check back flop.
  • pokertimepokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    What does he think of you? I agree your flop check opens up he thinks you missed the A and he can be value betting worse here. Call. I think your odds are too good to fold here even though I do expect to be beat a fair amount. Only 2A left so if he has it oh well.
    Thanked by 1Letmewin1
  • JKHJKH Posts: 837Subscriber
    edited November 2016
    The challenge is you have played this hand defensively so now u likely are gonna need to call but I think it is close & with whale in between on the turn, I expect u are gonna see Ak or aq a lot. I don't think he is turning 99-qq into a bluff which is what I expect him to have a bunch here.
    He is unlikely to not have an ace with Whale in the middle.
    I think occasionally you need to call in a spot so u are not exploitable and if this guy is as good as u say he should be capable of exploiting you over time but I would just say fold this first one.
    As I don't mind the defensive line and you definitely played the hand to get to show down. Why not just bet the flop and if he calls check back turn? If he is that good he would be unlikely to raise any value hand and block out the whale. If he calls and leads turn u could fold. If he calls u can check turn and make a river decision.
    Just my thought.
  • workinghardworkinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    As played, fold. Perhaps fold turns due to the extra person. If the positions were changed and the whale checked then pro bet, you call and whale folds, you would more likely call river. But with vil betting onto 2 players as played, he's not bluffing often enough.
    A line i prefer better, btw, is bet flop, ch turn, call or bet (sometimes check) river.
    Thanked by 1iamallin
  • stayinschoolstayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Heads up I think you have to call here as an ace is one of your best hands and also the best blocker to have by far. however with a whale in the pot V's turn bluff % goes way down.

    However, I could see this being an ok spot to turn a hand into a bluff with an A and 5 blocker. Think we put V's AJ-AK in a very tough spot when we could have AA, A6, A3 and most people never run this bluff.
  • Dragon-AshDragon-Ash Posts: 203Subscriber
    edited November 2016
    Why oh why are we checking this flop? If you're going to 3! with a suited Ace and hit your Ace, continue your story.
    *Especially* if you're going to just call turn. Are you calling because you think your Ace is good or are you bluff-catching? If you're going to bluff-catch, I'd just rather bet the flop.

    As played, fold. V isn't bluffing with such small bet, so this is value. After your 3! pre-flop he probably puts you on a hand like KK or QQ that's afraid of the board, and he's hoping to get a crying call. The only Ace you beat is specifically A2; he probably has a hand like AQ/AJ (or maybe he just decided to flat with AK).
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    Fold or Raise.
    I prob fold.

    Whale in the mid makes all the diff. His sizing really looks like he has an Ace.
    He can totally have AK because he would not want to 4bet it and squeeze out the whale in middle pre.


    If you raise you're repping slow played flopped set (AA I guess) Maybe weirdly slow played AK.... If he's a nit - he might fold AQ, AJ I guess (I think AK def calls)...but but if he hand reads well and not afraid to make a big call - he might "call BS" and toss in a chip, so up to you :lol:
  • chilidogchilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I think to call the river bet here , we have to give him a lot of connector hands like 87/76/97 (that missed) as i don't think he's value betting worse than A5 on the river. Can he reverse tell you and make his river sizing look valuey with a hand like 87? (I doubt it)

    Bottom line, people tend to play more straightforward in 3bet pots, especially out of position, and especially vs two other players (including 1 whale). I do think this is a tough spot on the river , and I think folding is better.

    However, I think it would be better if we just continue betting on the flop and keep the initiative. If we get called by the pro, we can slow it down on later streets, but we may want to play a bigger pot vs the whale, and checking the flop doesn't give us that option.
    Thanked by 1squishmytomato
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Heads up I think you have to call here as an ace is one of your best hands and also the best blocker to have by far. however with a whale in the pot V's turn bluff % goes way down.

    However, I could see this being an ok spot to turn a hand into a bluff with an A and 5 blocker. Think we put V's AJ-AK in a very tough spot when we could have AA, A6, A3 and most people never run this bluff.

    I dont agree that if vil is a good player squishy's line look FOS as his only legit hand is AA. we know squishy 3 bet w A5 but it would mean vil thinks squishy is 3betting A3 A6 or what 88 44 66 33?
  • Letmewin1Letmewin1 Posts: 1,244Member
    Pretty cool to see that we can't call with anything worse than AK here, hope he's not paying attention.
  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 352Subscriber, Professional
    interesting that almost all of you would have bet the flop. my reasoning for checking back was i figured i had a hand that could probably only get two streets.

    if v checked the turn, i could assume i was ahead and fire the turn and river. but... betting the flop does so something interesting - it puts v in a spot where he can only call with an extremely strong range with whale behind him. if he calls flop i think i can just safety shut it down.

    as played, i ended up folding river to his small sizing which looked to be going for thin value against kings or queens. he told me later he had kk himself.
  • Dragon-AshDragon-Ash Posts: 203Subscriber
    as played, i ended up folding river to his small sizing which looked to be going for thin value against kings or queens. he told me later he had kk himself.
    So he's putting you specifically on Queens? No way. If he had KK I'm the King of Norway. A good pro just flats pre with a whale on tilt behind him, then bets both turn and river after you call his turn bet?

    I don't buy it.

    Thanked by 1CycleV
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Dragon

    I have seen this before in LA many times. If Vil thought Squishy was FOS I might flat there to trap him and the whale. It also protects us losing a huge pot if Squishy has AA or an Ace and an ace flops..

    I chatted with squishy yesterday about this and I changed by mind on the cbet.. that said if you do check I dont think you can fold to the river bet given the good odds you are getting.

    I used to fold in this spot regularly but after calling into the show on a few mondays Bart has me convinced getting 3:1 you just have to call. I am still amazed at what villains have when I do. So basically getting better than 3:1 I will call with top pair or better..

    Squishy made a play and by checking flop induced this action.. I dont necessarily think Villain always has KK but if squishy had QQ he might play it this way and since vil is a good player might think he is getting value from QQ or any other pair 99+

    I have played with squishy at the table alot and I have told him this before that I think given how he sometimes 3 bets wider pre..he is overfolding too much on the river.. players do funky stuff and when getting 3:1 or better you just imho always have enough equity given this random spaz factor..

  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    edited November 2016
    I'm jumping into this thread late, but here's my two cents.

    The flop check is totally fine. In fact, betting would be a very spewy error in my opinion.

    Squishy gets it....your hand isn't worth 3 streets, so no reason to bloat the pot early. THe pot is already big because of the pre-flop 3-bet. This is actually one of the worst flops we can get because the WAWB factor is taken to an extreme. I would have much rather seen a flop like 9 3 2

    The problem with betting the flop with a weak pair of aces here, is that it blows up the pot in a way that makes it very difficult to get away from the hand later. Your line looks stronger than your hand actually is. So if you get action, it's probably not a good thing.

    However, if you can make your hand look weaker than it is...then you can safely bet/fold two streets for value, and get called by alot more worse hands.

    As played, call river. We set this up by underrepping our hand on the flop. We purposely gave 99-KK the green light. Call.
    Thanked by 1squishmytomato
  • JoannaJoanna Posts: 428Member
    edited December 2016
    Dragon-Ash wrote: »
    as played, i ended up folding river to his small sizing which looked to be going for thin value against kings or queens. he told me later he had kk himself.
    So he's putting you specifically on Queens? No way. If he had KK I'm the King of Norway. A good pro just flats pre with a whale on tilt behind him, then bets both turn and river after you call his turn bet?

    I don't buy it.

    LOL. That's what I was thinking. But then again good pros generally don't lie or even talk at all about their holdings :P

  • daynnightdaynnight Posts: 200Subscriber
    fold
  • David ChanDavid Chan Posts: 1,208Pro
    What kind of whale is the whale in this hand history?
  • squishmytomatosquishmytomato Posts: 352Subscriber, Professional
    edited December 2016
    DavidChan wrote: »
    What kind of whale is the whale in this hand history?
    limp calls pre with all premiums, 3bets with trash sometimes. plays a lot of hands. check calls with most of his range. his river bets are usually missed draws or the nuts or second nuts. nothing in between.

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